Derin Sular

Serdar Kaya: You once said that asking whether your political songs change anything is missing the point, probably because you think that it is the expression and the communication that the music itself entails that matters. Is that true?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah…

S.K.: However, it’s also true that NMA songs influenced and intrigued a lot of people throughout the years, including myself. For example, I did not know the true story behind Waco before I wondered about what you were referring to in the song You Weren’t There. I then watched two documentaries on the issue, and the things I got to learn dramatically changed the way I looked at the incident. Don’t you think that this is also an important impact – because I’m sure there are a lot of other people who have been intrigued by similar songs, and are touched by what they found out in the afterwards?

Justin Sullivan: What can I say? (laughs) Maybe it’s true… I don’t sit down and write a song, going “Oh, this is really gonna change the way people feel about the world.” I don’t think that.

S.K.: That not the inclination. That’s not why you write the songs. But there’s such an effect…

Justin Sullivan: (dismissively) Okay, good…

S.K.: To you, that’s like a secondary effect then.

Justin Sullivan: (short pause) I guess…

S.K.: But that’s not what makes you write songs, because you just want to express as an artist, rather than trying to change the world.

Justin Sullivan: I hate making records, but I like writings songs, and I like playing songs live. I think music’s made of moments. When the guitarist does that, at the same time the drummer does that, and the singer sings those words, and your whole body goes, “Yes!” [But] Why? I mean, it’s weird, isn’t it? It’s abstract.
I had a weird thing the other night in San Francisco. We started [the gig], and I wasn’t really in the mood. I have to say I was tired, I was very unfocused, and the first song was a bit of a mess, to be honest. And when we go half way through the second song, one of those moments happened. I don’t know why, at a certain moment that we all played, just the chord changed, and there was that, and Michael did that, and it was one of those moments which was like perfect. Perfect! Perfect! Like the heaven opens, and some beam from God [descends] like that. And then I was there. And then suddenly I was in the gig. And the gig was a good gig after that. But I think music is made of moments.

When you’re growing up, [for example,] they tell you that the world is quite like this. But you find out quite quickly it’s not… So all through your life, you’re going like, “What is the truth?”, “What is the world made of?”, “What is life all about?”

I don’t spend everyday thinking about it, but [I do] every now and again. And then you hear a piece of music. And there is a moment in the music where you go, “That! That’s what it’s all about!” And it’s completely abstract. You can’t explain why. Wonderful! Magic!

[VIEW THE VIDEO]

S.K.: What you just said made me remember a passage I read in one of Ayn Rand’s books. It was saying that we don’t know anything about the psycho-epistemology of music – meaning that we don’t know what it is in sounds that makes us feel different things that we didn’t know were present inside of us.

Justin Sullivan: Sure.

S.K.: Secondly, you said, “I don’t write all the time.” But think about us. For example, this is the first time you’re talking to me, this is the first time you’re seeing me. But I watched lots of videos of you. From Impurity on, I have been listening to your songs, and we [as human beings] know phenomena with the parts of them that we come to contact with. So that’s the part of Justin Sullivan that I came to contact with, and that’s my idea of Justin Sullivan. So, it’s natural for us to think that you’re always like this.

Justin Sullivan: Yes, of course.

“[Obama is] an intellectual. That’s really weird for Americans…”

S.K.: In a U.S. gig a couple of years ago, before you started playing You Weren’t There, you told the audience about your experience of watching Fox News for the first time. Did you get to watch any more of Fox News while here in America this time around? If so, any progress on their part?

Justin Sullivan: (laughs) Fascinating! I think it’s amazing that America, given the presence of Fox News, short jokes, and all these things, voted in the last election voted for a f**king intellectual. The fact that he is black or half-African is not a big deal. It’s nothing. The point is that he’s an intellectual. That’s really weird for Americans… There is this huge anti-intellectualism in America.

S.K.: But it wasn’t always like that in the United States.

Justin Sullivan: I don’t know…

S.K.: You have James Madison on the other hand?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah. Long time ago, though… Since the Second World War, it’s pretty much not a huge tally of intellectuals out there… Not really… He’s a f**king university professor! This is a man who thinks a lot, and he is obviously very intelligent than all the rest of it.

S.K.: (laughs) That’s why I told you [before the interview] that I would drive this bus for free – to have this conversation going on for hours… It’s incredible!

Okay… [Next...] we occasionally hear of you doing things like handing out anti-war leaflets at Bradford city square or picketing with striking miners. Is that true?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah… I do that every now and again… I have to keep my hand in.

S.K.: To what extent do you feel a need to and actually do take your political views out on the street?

Justin Sullivan: I like to do it every now and again. [But] it’s not because I think that my presence is gonna make any f**king difference at all. It’s for the sake of my own soul.

S.K.: Like it would be a sin of omission?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah… [But] I don’t do it very often. I just do it sometimes – in a kind of random way. There is a million causes in the world. It’s a little bit like one of these beggars on the street. I don’t give to every beggar. I don’t give to no beggars. I occasionally give to a beggar – for no apparent reason. It’s random. Everything’s random. Nature’s completely random.

I used to be a busker… I used to play guitar on the street. When people come towards you, you never knew who would give you money. Some people did, and some people didn’t. Random.

I used to hitchhike. The car comes towards you. You look at the driver. Man-woman, black-white, old-young, rich-poor… You never know who will stop. Some people stop, and some people don’t. It’s really random.