Derin Sular

Serdar Kaya: In an interview you gave in Arizona about two years ago, you are reported to have said, “I live in a city, which is a third Muslim, and if you believe the Bush, Blair and bin Laden vision of the world, we’d be shooting each other, but of course we’re not.” So why do you think this is the case? I mean what’s wrong with you guys, why are you just not killing each other in Bradford?

Justin Sullivan: (laughs) It was a strange time. We started coming back to America for the first time in 2003, which is just the beginning of the Iraq War. And everywhere there was kind of flags. And I watched it dwindle, and dwindle, and dwindle, and dwindle down to where there is no flags now.

I first came to America in 1975 as a kid. I hitchhiked around America for three four months, just having weird adventures and sleeping out, just wandering around America. And it was a strange time. It was the time after the end of Nixon, after Vietnam, and the early Carter time. And there’s a lot of music from that time, which is very kind of burned out. Everything is burned out, bleached out. It’s like autumn. I love this time of the year when everything is kind of burned out. And I remember America just felt burned out. And now it feels like, again, only much more burned out.

S.K.: That’s all you want to say about it?

Justin Sullivan: Oh, oh, as to why we’re not killing each other… You don’t have to answer that question. (smiles)

But I wrote that song called Bloodsports. You know the chorus says, “I am not at war.” And it wasn’t written about Iraq really. It was written about Bradford. It was written the day after the 7/7 bombings is London. It was impossible not to look at the other people in the street, and go, “What do they think?” You know what I mean?

Some people vote for the British National Party (BNP). It’s a fascist party in Britain. It’s not very strong, but some people vote for it. So, if you’re a second generation Pakistani kid, you probably look at all the white people and ask, “Does he vote BNP?” And there is that moment, you know, when the communities kind of [diverge]. And there was a moment in “I am not at war” to kind of quarrel in myself as much as anything else. For two or three days after 7/7, we’re always kind of going [suspicious of one another].

S.K.: You?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, even me. Even me.

S.K.: Even you.

Justin Sullivan: Even me, even me.

S.K.: You means, “even you,” yeah.

Justin Sullivan: Even me, going past some guy on the street with a long beard, and obviously he is a very religious Muslim. And I’m thinking, “Is he?” You know, “Does he sympathize with the bombings?”

S.K.: I wouldn’t expect that from Justin Sullivan.

Justin Sullivan: Yeah? I’m just the same as anyone else… Just like he might look at me and say, “Is he a racist bastard? Does he vote for the BNP?”

S.K.: If it’s a small party, probably not. But then again, probably so…

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, who knows… And there is that moment when communities are suspicious of each other. And most people just get on with life.

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S.K.: Well… you already answered my next question. The question was, “I know you like to go to places that you haven’t been before. How did you like Turkey?” And…

Justin Sullivan: … I’m fascinated by Turkey. I like Turkey. It’s very beautiful.

S.K.: Beautiful?

Justin Sullivan: It’s a very beautiful country.

S.K.: Do you think that Turkey’s candidacy to EU membership is important in the sense that it is a predominantly Muslim country?

Justin Sullivan: I don’t know. You’ve got your own version of Islam. It’s very Turkish…

S.K.: Meaning?

Justin Sullivan: Islam can adapt – which is why it’s a moderately successful cult. Like the biggest Islamic country in the world is Indonesia. They’ve got their own version of Islam, which is kind of…

S.K.: … but isn’t it the same for every religion?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah. And you know, such and such in Turkey… How many Turks actually quite like drinking beer? Quite a lot. It’s quite deep in the culture. And there is parts of Turkish culture which is much older than Islam. Rather like in Iran. Zoroastrianism. I don’t know what the figures are [for Turkey].

S.K.: Like 30% I would say is religious.

Justin Sullivan: That’s less than in America. What parts of the population want to be a part of the E.U.? What are the figures?

S.K.: Since 1997, Turkey changed a lot, because in the past, Muslims were against the E.U. With Erdoğan – the prime minister that you so like – things have changed. After being subjected to different sorts of discriminations by the military-imposed ideology, Muslims switched their positions. Before 1997, they wanted freedoms only for themselves. But after then, the paradigm shift made them think and say that they should come up with a more embracing, a more encompassing idea of freedom – just so everyone [including themselves] can benefit from it.

Justin Sullivan: Could it be a more embracing vision of Turkey as well?

S.K.: Yeah. Because, Kurds have supported Erdoğan, since the freedoms meant more freedoms for Kurds. More non-Muslims have supported Erdoğan. Although they account only to 1% of the population, that’s still important. And intellectuals have supported Erdoğan. That’s also a group which is very few in number, but they are highly effective, since they publish books, op-ed articles, and so on… So that constitutes a realignment in Turkish politics.

The opponents of Erdoğan also support Westernization. But they want to Westernize only in terms of their lifestyles. They don’t want to Westernize politically. They don’t want political liberalism. Their idea of the West is more like the West in the Interwar Period. Yet between the two world wars, it was a fascist Europe.

Justin Sullivan: There is traditional Islam. And then there’s the new fundamentalist Islam, which is quite different. Then there’s the Western influence. Then there’s the army… Erdoğan has played very very cleverly. He is “very” clever. It is quite interesting to watch the army be outfoxed basically. Maybe that’s why he is so popular…

S.K.: Such an interesting conversation, thank you very much…

[From that point on, we're just talking as we pack...]

S.K.: By the way, on our way to here, I asked as to what would happen if Justin, in his next visit to Turkey, sang Arm Yourselves and Run in Kurdish!

Justin Sullivan: (laughs) Interesting to find out! But I don’t think I’ll try it…

S.K.: You don’t want to risk it?

Justin Sullivan: It’s not that. There are certain times to play “punk-rocker” – like to make things happen, just to put a stick in the wasp’s nest. There are good times to do that. And as I get older, I don’t really find as much fun in putting sticks in wasps’ nests. I put a lot of sticks in wasps’ nests in my life. And sometimes I still do it. But mostly I don’t.

S.K.: After the age of 40? Same thing?

Justin Sullivan: Might be. I am 53 now, you know…